The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume I Part 15

M^r Luther Martin moved to strike out the words requiring such an oath from the State officers, viz "within the several States," observing that if the new oath should be contrary to that already taken by them it would be improper; if coincident the oaths already taken will be sufficient.

On the question for striking out as proposed by Mr. L. Martin

Ma.s.s^{ts} no. Con^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay.

M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

Question on whole Resolution as proposed by M^r Randolph;

Ma.s.s^{ts} ay. Con^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no.

M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Com^e rose & House Adj^d.

TUESDAY JUNE 12^{TH} IN COMMITTEE OF WHOLE

The Question taken on the Resolution 15, to wit, referring the new system to the people of the States for ratification it pa.s.sed in the affirmative Ma.s.s^{ts} ay. Con^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a[79] ay. Del.

div^d. M^d div^d. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

[79] Pennsylvania omitted in the printed Journal. The vote is there entered as of June 11th.--Madison's Note.

M^r Sherman & M^r Elseworth moved to fill the blank left in the 4^{th} Resolution for the periods of electing the members of the first branch with the words, "every year;" Mr. Sherman observing that he did it in order to bring on some question.

M^r Rutlidge proposed "every two years."

M^r Jennifer[80] prop^d, "every three years," observing that the too great frequency of elections rendered the people indifferent to them, and made the best men unwilling to engage in so precarious a service.

[80] "M^r Jenifer is a Gentleman of fortune in Maryland;--he is always in good humour, and never fails to make his company pleased with him. He sits silent in the Senate, and seems to be conscious that he is no politician. From his long continuance in single life, no doubt but he has made the vow of celibacy. He speaks warmly of the Ladies notwithstanding.

M^r Jenifer is about 55 years of Age, and once served as Aid de Camp to Major Gen^l Lee."--Pierce's Notes, _Am. Hist.

Rev._, iii., 330.

M^r Madison seconded the motion for three years. Instability is one of the great vices of our republics, to be remedied. Three years will be necessary, in a Government so extensive, for members to form any knowledge of the various interests of the States to which they do not belong, and of which they can know but little from the situation and affairs of their own. One year will be almost consumed in preparing for and travelling to & from the seat of national business.

M^r Gerry. The people of New England will never give up the point of annual elections, they know of the transition made in England from triennial to septennial elections, and will consider such an innovation here as the prelude to a like usurpation. He considered annual elections as the only defence of the people ag^{st} tyranny. He was as much ag^{st} a triennial House as ag^{st} a hereditary Executive.

M^r Madison, observed that if the opinions of the people were to be our guide, it w^d be difficult to say what course we ought to take. No member of the Convention could say what the opinions of his Const.i.tuents were at this time; much less could he say what they would think if possessed of the information & lights possessed by the members here; & still less what would be their way of thinking 6 or 12 months hence. We ought to consider what was right & necessary in itself for the attainment of a proper Governm^t. A plan adjusted to this idea will recommend itself--The respectability of this convention will give weight to their recommendation of it. Experience will be constantly urging the adoption of it, and all the most enlightened & respectable citizens will be its advocates. Should we fall short of the necessary & proper point, this influential cla.s.s of Citizens, will be turned against the plan, and little support in opposition to them can be gained to it from the unreflecting mult.i.tude.

M^r Gerry repeated his opinion that it was necessary to consider what the people would approve. This had been the policy of all Legislators.

If the reasoning of Mr. Madison were just, and we supposed a limited Monarchy the best form in itself, we ought to recommend it, tho' the genius of the people was decidedly adverse to it, and having no hereditary distinctions among us, we were dest.i.tute of the essential materials for such an innovation.

On the question for the triennial election of the 1^{st} branch

Ma.s.s. no. (M^r King ay.) M^r Ghorum wavering. Con^t no.

N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. no.

S. C. no. Geo. ay.

The words requiring members of y^e 1^{st} branch to be of the age of ---- years were struck out Maryland alone no. The words "_liberal compensation for members_," being consid^d M^r Madison moves to insert the words, "_& fixt_." He observed that it would be improper to leave the members of the Nat^l legislature to be provided for by the State Legisl^s, because it would create an improper dependence; and to leave them to regulate their own wages, was an indecent thing, and might in time prove a dangerous one. He thought wheat or some other article of which the average price throughout a reasonable period preceding might be settled in some convenient mode, would form a proper standard.

Col. Mason seconded the motion; adding that it would be improper for other reasons to leave the wages to be regulated by the States. 1.

the different States would make different provision for their representatives, and an inequality would be felt among them, whereas he thought they ought to be in all respects equal. 2. the parsimony of the States might reduce the provision so low that as had already happened in choosing delegates to Congress, the question would be not who were most fit to be chosen, but who were most willing to serve.

On the question for inserting the words, "and fixt"

Ma.s.s^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay.

M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

Doc^r Franklyn said he approved of the amendment just made for rendering the salaries as fixed as possible; but disliked the word "_liberal_." He would prefer the word moderate if it was necessary to subst.i.tute any other. He remarked the tendency of abuses in every case, to grow of themselves when once begun, and related very pleasantly the progression in ecclesiastical benefices, from the first departure from the gratuitous provision for the Apostles, to the establishment of the papal system. The word "liberal" was struck out nem con.

On the motion of M^r Pierce, that the wages should be paid out of the National Treasury,

Ma.s.s^{ts} ay. C^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay.

M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. G. ay.

Question on the clause relating to term of service & compensation of 1^{st} branch,

Ma.s.s^{ts} ay. C^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay.

M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

On a question for striking out the "_ineligibility_ of members of the Nat^l Legis: to _State offices_,"

Ma.s.s^{ts} div^d. Con^t ay. N. Y. ay. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no.

M^d div^d. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

On the question for agreeing to the clause as amended,

Ma.s.s^{ts} ay. Con^t no. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay.

M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

On a question for making members of the Nat^l Legislature _ineligible_ to any office under the Nat^l Gov^t for the term of 3 years after ceasing to be members,

Ma.s.s^{ts} no. Con^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no.

M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

On the question for such ineligibility for one year,

Ma.s.s^{ts} ay. C^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay.

M^d div^d. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

On question moved by Mr. Pinckney, for striking out "incapable of re-election into 1^{st} branch of the Nat^l Legisl. for ---- years, and subject to recall" ag^d to nem. con.

On question for striking out from the Resol: 5 the words requiring members of the Senatorial branch to be of the age of ---- years at least

Ma.s.s^{ts} no. Con^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. no.

M^d no. V^a no. N. C. div^d. S. C. no. Geo. div^d.

On the question for filling the blank with 30 years as the qualification; it was agreed to,