The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which framed the Constitution of USA Volume I Part 34

M^r Mason could not agree to the motion, notwithstanding it was favorable to Virg^a because he thought it unjust. It was certain that the slaves were valuable, as they raised the value of land, increased the exports & imports, and of course the revenue, would supply the means of feeding & supporting an army, and might in cases of emergency become themselves soldiers. As in these important respects they were useful to the Community at large, they ought not to be excluded from the estimate of Representation. He could not however regard them as equal to freemen and could not vote for them as such. He added as worthy of remark, that the Southern States have this peculiar species of property over & above the other species of property common to all the States.

M^r Williamson reminded M^r Ghorum that if the South^n States contended for the inferiority of blacks to whites when taxation was in view, the Eastern States on the same occasion contended for their equality. He did not however either then or now concur in either extreme, but approved of the ratio of 3/5.

On M^r Butler's motion for considering blacks as equal to Whites in the apportionm^t of Representation

Ma.s.s^{ts} no. Con^t no. (N. Y. not on floor). N. J. no. P^a no.

Del. ay. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Gov^r Morris said he had several objections to the proposition of M^r Williamson. 1. It fettered the Legislature too much. 2. it would exclude some States altogether who would not have a sufficient number to ent.i.tle them to a single Representative. 3. it will not consist with the Resolution pa.s.sed on Sat.u.r.day last authorizing the Legislature to adjust the Representation from time to time on the principles of population & wealth or with the principles of equity. If slaves were to be considered as inhabitants, not as wealth then the s^d Resolution would not be pursued. If as wealth, then why is no other wealth but slaves included?

These objections may perhaps be removed by amendments. His great objection was that the number of inhabitants was not a proper standard of wealth. The amazing difference between the comparative numbers & wealth of different countries, rendered all reasoning superfluous on the subject. Numbers might with greater propriety be deemed a measure of strength, than of wealth, yet the late defence made by G. Britain, ag^{st} her numerous enemies proved in the clearest manner, that it is entirely fallacious even in this respect.

M^r King thought there was great force in the objections of M^r Gov^r Morris: he would however accede to the proposition for the sake of doing something.

M^r Rutlidge contended for the admission of wealth in the estimate by which Representation should be regulated. The Western States will not be able to contribute in proportion to their numbers; they sh^d not therefore be represented in that proportion. The Atlantic States will not concur in such a plan. He moved that "at the end of ---- years after the 1^{st} meeting of the Legislature, and of every ---- years thereafter, the Legislature shall proportion the Representation according to the principles of wealth & population."

M^r Sherman thought the number of people alone the best rule for measuring wealth as well as representation; and that if the Legislature were to be governed by wealth, they would be obliged to estimate it by numbers. He was at first for leaving the matter wholly to the discretion of the Legislature; but he had been convinced by the observation of (M^r Randolph & M^r Mason), that the _periods_ & the _rule_, of revising the Representation ought to be fixt by the Const.i.tution.

M^r Reed thought the Legislature ought not to be too much shackled. It would make the Const.i.tution like Religious Creeds, embarra.s.sing to those bound to conform to them & more likely to produce dissatisfaction and scism, than harmony and union.

M^r Mason objected to M^r Rutlidge's motion, as requiring of the Legislature something too indefinite & impracticable, and leaving them a pretext for doing nothing.

M^r Wilson had himself no objection to leaving the Legislature entirely at liberty. But considered wealth as an impracticable rule.

M^r Ghorum. If the Convention who are comparatively so little bia.s.sed by local views are so much perplexed, How can it be expected that the Legislature hereafter under the full bia.s.s of those views, will be able to settle a standard. He was convinced by the arguments of others & his own reflections, that the Convention ought to fix some standard or other.

M^r Gov^r Morris. The arg^{ts} of others & his own reflections had led him to a very different conclusion. If we can't agree on a rule that will be just at this time, how can we expect to find one that will be just in all times to come. Surely those who come after us will judge better of things present, than we can of things future. He could not persuade himself that numbers would be a just rule at any time. The remarks of (M^r Mason) relative to the Western Country had not changed his opinion on that head. Among other objections it must be apparent they would not be able to furnish men equally enlightened, to share in the administration of our common interests. The Busy haunts of men not the remote wilderness, was the proper school of political Talents. If the Western people get the power into their hands they will ruin the Atlantic interests. The Back members are always most averse to the best measures. He mentioned the case of Pen^a formerly. The lower part of the State had y^e power in the first instance. They kept it in y^r own hands & the country was y^e better for it. Another objection with him ag^{st} admitting the blacks into the census, was that the people of Pen^a would revolt at the idea of being put on a footing with slaves. They would reject any plan that was to have such an effect. Two objections had been raised ag^{st} leaving the adjustment of the Representation from time, to time, to the discretion of the Legislature. The 1. was, they would be unwilling to revise it at all. The 2 that by referring to _wealth_ they would be bound by a rule which if willing, they would be unable to execute. The 1^{st} obj^n distrusts their fidelity. But if their duty, their honor & their oaths will not bind them, let us not put into their hands our liberty, and all our other great interests; let us have no Gov^t at all. 2. If these ties will bind them, we need not distrust the practicability of the rule. It was followed in part by the Com^e in the apportionment of Representatives yesterday reported to the House. The best course that could be taken would be to leave the interests of the people to the Representatives of the people.

M^r Madison was not a little surprised to hear this implicit confidence urged by a member who on all occasions, had inculcated so strongly, the political depravity of men, and the necessity of checking one vice and interest by opposing to them another vice & interest. If the Representatives of the people would be bound by the ties he had mentioned, what need was there of a Senate? What of a Revisionary power?

But his reasoning was not only inconsistent with his former reasoning, but with itself. At the same time that he recommended this implicit confidence to the Southern States in the Northern majority, he was still more zealous in exhorting all to a jealousy of a Western Majority. To reconcile the gentl^n with himself, it must be imagined that he determined the human character by the points of the compa.s.s. The truth was that all men having power ought to be distrusted to a certain degree. The case of Pen^a had been mentioned where it was admitted that those who were possessed of the power in the original settlement, never admitted the new settlem^{ts} to a due share of it. England was a still more striking example. The power there had long been in the hands of the boroughs, of the minority; who had opposed & defeated every reform which had been attempted. Virg^a was in a lesser degree another example. With regard to the Western States, he was clear & firm in opinion, that no unfavorable distinctions were admissible either in point of justice or policy. He thought also that the hope of contributions to the Treas^y from them had been much underrated. Future contributions it seemed to be understood on all hands would be princ.i.p.ally levied on imports & exports. The extent and fertility of the Western Soil would for a long time give to agriculture a preference over manufactures. Trials would be repeated till some articles could be raised from it that would bear a transportation to places where they could be exchanged for imported manufactures. Whenever the Mississippi should be opened to them, which would of necessity be y^e case as soon as their population would subject them to any considerable share of the Public burden, imposts on their trade could be collected with less expence & greater certainty, than on that of the Atlantic States. In the mean time, as their supplies must pa.s.s through the _Atlantic States_, their contributions would be levied in the same manner with those of the Atlantic States. He could not agree that any substantial objection lay ag^{st} fix^g numbers for the perpetual standard of Representation. It was said that Representation & taxation were to go together; that taxation and wealth ought to go together, that population & wealth were not measures of each other. He admitted that in different climates, under different forms of Gov^t and in different stages of civilization the inference was perfectly just. He would admit that in no situation, numbers of inhabitants were an accurate measure of wealth. He contended however that in the U. States it was sufficiently so for the object in contemplation. Altho' their climate varied considerably, yet as the Gov^{ts} the laws, and the manners of all were nearly the same, and the intercourse between different parts perfectly free, population, industry, arts, and the value of labour, would constantly tend to equalize themselves. The value of labour might be considered as the princ.i.p.al criterion of wealth and ability to support taxes; and this would find its level in different places where the intercourse should be easy & free, with as much certainty as the value of money or any other thing. Wherever labour would yield most, people would resort, till the compet.i.tion should destroy the inequality. Hence it is that the people are constantly swarming from the more to the less populous places--from Europe to Am^a--from the North^n & Middle parts of the U. S. to the Southern & Western. They go where land is cheaper, because there labour is dearer.

If it be true that the same quant.i.ty of produce raised on the banks of the Ohio is of less value, than on the Delaware, it is also true that the same labor will raise twice or thrice, the quant.i.ty in the former, that it will raise in the latter situation.

Col. Mason. Agreed with M^r Gov^r Morris that we ought to leave the interests of the people to the Representatives of the people; but the objection was that the Legislature would cease to be the Representatives of the people. It would continue so no longer than the States now containing a majority of the people should retain that majority. As soon as the Southern & Western population should predominate, which must happen in a few years, the power w^d be in the hands of the minority, and would never be yielded to the majority, unless provided for by the Const.i.tution.

On the Question for postponing M^r Williamson's motion, in order to consider that of M^r Rutlidge, it pa.s.sed in the negative, Ma.s.s^{ts} ay. Con^t no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d no.

V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

On the question on the first clause of M^r Williamson's motion as to taking a census of the free inhabitants, it pa.s.sed in the affirmative; Ma.s.s^{ts} ay. Con^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. no.

M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no.

the next clause as to 3/5 of the negroes considered.

M^r King being much opposed to fixing numbers as the rule of representation, was particularly so on account of the blacks. He thought the admission of them along with Whites at all, would excite great discontents among the States having no slaves. He had never said as to any particular point that he would in no event acquiesce in & support it; but he w^d say that if any in case such a declaration was to be made by him, it would be in this. He remarked that in the temporary allotment of Representatives made by the Committee, the Southern States had received more than the number of their white & Three fifths of their black inhabitants ent.i.tled them to.

M^r Sherman. S. Carol^a had not more beyond her proportion than N. York & N. Hamps.h.i.+re, nor either of them more than was necessary in order to avoid fractions or reducing them below their proportions. Georgia had more; but the rapid growth of that State seemed to justify it. In general the allotment might not be just, but considering all circ.u.mstances, he was satisfied with it.

M^r Ghorum. supported the propriety of establis.h.i.+ng numbers as the rule.

He said that in Ma.s.s^{ts} estimates had been taken in the different towns, and that persons had been curious enough to compare these estimates with the respective numbers of people; and it had been found even including Boston, that the most exact proportion prevailed between numbers & property. He was aware that there might be some weight in what had fallen from his colleague, as to the umbrage which might be taken by the people of the Eastern States. But he recollected that when the proposition of Cong^s for changing the 8^{th} art: of the Confed^n was before the Legislature of Ma.s.s^{ts} the only difficulty then was to satisfy them that the negroes ought not to have been counted equally with whites instead of being counted in ratio of three-fifths only.[129]

[129] They were then to have been a rule of taxation only.

Note in Madison's handwriting.

M^r Wilson did not well see on what principle the admission of blacks in the proportion of three fifths could be explained. Are they admitted as Citizens? then why are they not admitted on an equality with White Citizens? are they admitted as property? then why is not other property admitted into the computation? These were difficulties however which he thought must be overruled by the necessity of compromise. He had some apprehensions also from the tendency of the blending of the blacks with the whites, to give disgust to the people of Pen^a, as had been intimated by his Colleague (M^r Gov^r Morris). But he differed from him in thinking numbers of inhab^{ts} so incorrect a measure of wealth. He had seen the Western settlem^{ts} of P^a and on a comparison of them with the City of Philad^a could discover little other difference, than that property was more unequally divided among individuals here than there. Taking the same number in the aggregate in the two situations he believed there would be little difference in their wealth and ability to contribute to the public wants.

M^r Gov^r Morris was compelled to declare himself reduced to the dilemma of doing injustice to the Southern States or to human nature, and he must therefore do it to the former. For he could never agree to give such encouragement to the Slave Trade as would be given by allowing them a representation for their negroes, and he did not believe those States would ever confederate on terms that would deprive them of that trade.

On Question for agreeing to include 3/5 of the blacks Ma.s.s^{ts} no. Con^t ay. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d[130] no. V^a ay.

N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

[130] (M^r Carrol s^d in explanation of the vote of M^d that he wished the phraseology to be so altered as to obviate if possible the danger which had been expressed of giving umbrage to the Eastern & Middle States.) Note in Madison's hand.

On the question as to taking census "the first year after the meeting of the Legislature"

Ma.s.s^{ts} ay. Con^t no. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d no.

V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

On filling the blank for the periodical census, with 15 years. Agreed to nem. con.

M^r Madison moved to add, after "15 years," the words "at least" that the Legislature might antic.i.p.ate when circ.u.mstances were likely to render a particular year inconvenient.

On this motion for adding "at least," it pa.s.sed in the negative the States being equally divided.

Mas. ay. Con^t no. N. J. no. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay.

N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

A Change of the phraseology of the other clause so as to read, "and the Legislature shall alter or augment the representation accordingly," was agreed to nem. con.

On the question on the whole resolution of M^r Williamson as amended,

Mas. no. Con^t no. N. J. no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no.

S. C. no. Geo. no.

THURSDAY, JULY 12. IN CONVENTION.

M^r Gov^r Morris moved to add to the clause empowering the Legislature to vary the Representation according to the principles of wealth & numbers of inhab^{ts} a "proviso that taxation shall be in proportion to Representation."

M^r Butler contended again that Representation s^d be according to the full number of inhab^{ts} including all the blacks; admitting the justice of M^r Gov^r Morris's motion.

M^r Mason also admitted the justice of the principle, but was afraid embarra.s.sments might be occasioned to the Legislature by it. It might drive the Legislature to the plan of Requisitions.

M^r Gov^r Morris, admitted that some objections lay ag^{st} his Motion, but supposed they would be removed by restraining the rule to _direct_ taxation. With regard to indirect taxes on _exports_ & imports & on consumption the rule would be inapplicable. Notwithstanding what had been said to the contrary he was persuaded that the imports & consumption were pretty nearly equal throughout the Union.

General Pinkney liked the idea. He thought it so just that it could not be objected to. But foresaw that if the revision of the census was left to the discretion of the Legislature, it would never be carried into execution. The rule must be fixed, and the execution of it enforced by the Const.i.tution. He was alarmed at what was said[131] yesterday, concerning the Negroes. He was now again alarmed at what had been thrown out concerning the taxing of exports. S. Carol^a has in one year exported to the amount of 600,000 Sterling all which was the fruit of the labor of her blacks. Will she be represented in proportion to this amount? She will not. Neither ought she then to be subject to a tax on it. He hoped a clause would be inserted in the system, restraining the Legislature from taxing Exports.

[131] By M^r Gov^r Morris. Note in Madison's handwriting.